ZED SPOT LIGHT

COPYRIGHT 2002 Financial Times Ltd.

(From The Post (Zambia) - AAGM)

Byline: Amos Malupenga

No One Will Prove I Had an Affair With Vera - Archie.


There will never be anyone with evidence to prove that I had a love affair with former first lady Vera Tembo Chiluba, Lusaka businessman Archie Malie has said.

Archie said that kind of evidence called for an eye-witness to say this is what he or she saw happening as opposed to believing in rumours.

He said in adultery cases, rumours or innuendoes were never considered as evidence. Archie claimed his openness with Vera opened him to speculations that he had an affair with her.

Question: So who is Archie Malie?

Answer: Archie Duncan Malie is a son of Mr. and Mrs. Mactribouy. I am the third born in my family. I have got an elder brother called Golden Mactribouy and I have a sister called Susan Mactribouy and I am a third born in my family. We were born eight of us.

I went to School at Thornpark Primary School in Lusaka, thereafter, I was in Monze at Nteme Primary School which is about five kilometres from Monze on the Namwala Road, thereafter I went to Choongo Primary School which is about 5 kilometres from my Dad's home on Namwala road. Then I went to Monze Secondary School up to form three.

'There will never be evidence to prove that I had an affair with Vera'

From there I was into private business. From business...

Q: But which years were these, be specific?

A: I was born in 1961, on the 17th of April in Lusaka at UTH. I started school, I think, around 1967 or 68, somewhere there. From Monze Secondary School I came back to Lusaka.

I went to Lusaka High School. From Lusaka High School that's when I started business. I stopped school, in fact, in form four because I never did my GCE (General Certificate). I later did my GCE through correspondence. I went into business which was transport business. This was in 1978, somewhere there. I can't remember properly.

Q: Why did you go into business without completing school? Was it the love for money or school was becoming boring?

A: Well, I was the third born in my family like I said. My dad was all the time in Monze and at that particular time I used to live with my mother here in Lusaka and I had an interest in business so I just went into business.

Q: Is it that you wanted to make money for yourself or something?

A: School wasn't boring as such because I had a lot of interest in school. I had more responsibilities to take care of, in short.

I should say that I had a position where I had to take care of my mum because my dad was a polygamist, he had a second wife in Monze.

My mother was the first wife here in Lusaka. So due to that I decided to go into business and the minute you start holding money and the school, there is a difference.

Q: So what kind of transport business is this?

A: Bus business because my father had buses or rather he was a transporter. I had a bus called Utandisiyi which means 'don't leave me'. I used to run that bus from Lusaka to Namwala and from Namwala to Lusaka.

So I was driving to Namwala and back. In fact, that was the main reason why I stopped school because I bought a bus and after getting the bus I used to do mechanical work, fixing vehicles because from my upper growing we have been brought up in vehicles.

I was trying to do some repairs of vehicles so I had a bit of money and I bought a bus. Then I employed a driver who used to drive the bus from here to Namwala but there was a bit of a problem. So I decided to start running the bus on my own, that's what made me stop pursuing my education. And I was driving the bus to Namwala and then back to Lusaka. That's how I started business. I think this should have been around 1982 or 83.

Q: So how did you rise up to where you are now?

A: You know I had a friend called Baldwin Nkumbula. We were in school together in Monze and I used to go to his mine in, Ndola rural. It was called Kamakanga. So I worked with him and I used to buy (precious) stones, sell stones then bring in vehicles from South Africa. That's how I started buying and selling vehicles.

'There will never be evidence to prove that I had an affair with Vera'

Q: Where is your business today? What are you doing?

A: What I am doing today is I am into agriculture. I have been doing agriculture business from 1994. I used to take a lot of fertilisers and maize to the Congo and buy a lot of maize from farmers in Zambia, from Chongwe, Namwala and other rural areas.

Q: Was this through Farmer Support Services?

A: First it was called Suleen Investments. Suleen Investments was a combined name between my two sisters who were called Susan and Leena. So that is why it was called Suleen.

It was named after my sisters who are both dead. Susan was my elder sister and Leena was my younger sister. Then I formed Farmer Support Services in 1999.

Q: How many people do you employ?

Archie the family man - click on images for captions

A: At that time before this issue of Vera or whatever, we had about 64 workers. But now we have decided to move all the operations to South Africa. What happened was that I have some partners, we use one trade name which is Farmer Support Services Zambia Limited, Farmer Support Services South Africa Limited, Farmer Support Services Malawi Limited. We were just partners because of the trade name.

In Congo it is called Service D'appvi Aux Fermiers which is still Farmer Support Services but it is in French. So we have an operation in South Africa where I am a partner and I have some operations in Congo where I am a partner. And the Zambian one, since there was this problem of aggravated robbery etc, the company closed down but we are trying to revive it. The company wound up because the CEO (Chief Executive Officer) was implicated in thefts of various motor vehicles.

Q: What about your connections to former president Dr. Kenneth Kaunda? We hear a lot of stories about this. There were even some pictures displayed at one of the press briefings by Dr. Frederick Chiluba.

In that picture, you were with Dr. Kaunda and other people in India. Dr. Kaunda dressed like what they called a Guru and that picture was linking you to devil worshipping. What is your comment?

A: Dr. Kaunda has been very close to myself and my late dad. The reason is that my dad was also very close to Harry Mwaanga Nkumbula. I have known Dr. Kaunda from my childhood or rather from the time he was president and after he left the presidency.

The pictures they are talking about, actually we had gone for a spiritual retreat in India. This service has got nothing to do with any Satanic verses or devil worshipping. It is more pure than actually even Christianity itself. That was in 1996 or 1995, somewhere there.

The PC 12 Executive Eight Seater Jet that Archie's company intends to buy next June

Q: What exactly happened during this spiritual retreat?

A: A spiritual retreat is a retreat which happens every year in India where a lot of influential people, or rather people with Christian background or who feel they want to have a position where they are closer to nature or where they can get together meet.

So what happens is that every year these people come in from conferences and have peace talks of humanity and how human beings should live. What should not be done and what should be done and how mostly to hear from your soul rather than your body.

Q: We hear also that you knew Dr. Chiluba long before you knew madam Vera, how true is that?

A: That's very true because when Dr. Chiluba started campaigning in his days before he became president of MMD, he used to fill diesel and petrol from a farm as you know in those days the filling stations used to close at 20:00 hours.

And Baldwin used to keep a lot of fuel at his farm so the Chilubas or rather the campaign team used to fill fuel from Baldwin's farm which was in Kitwe to go on their campaign trips or wherever they wanted to have their meetings. So we did know each other, we met, and he is very much aware of me.

Then we met again or we had been meeting when Baldwin was trying to pursue his funds or the monies which Mr. Rao his partner, had failed or refused to pay or there was a misunderstanding. So I used to drive Mr. Nkumbula to State House to go and find out whether he could mediate or rather he could influence or he would put in a word so that Rao would pay.

Q: And when did you come to know madam Vera?

A: I came to know Vera in Ndola through the same Nkumbula. We had gone to their place, Baldwin passed by to see them. That's the first time I met Vera. And in that real sense I was introduced to her by Baldwin and she thought I was Baldwin's younger brother because he used to call me more of his brother than a friend.

Vera visits Archie at Maina Soko hospital

Q: Madam Vera said you were business partners, what business did you do together?

A: Not a business partner in that sense but in positions where I used to only assist her sometimes in her Hope Foundation where she would go and give donations of some Chitenges because I used to bring a lot of containers of Chitenges from India. I used to sell Chitenge materials so I used to give her those Chitenges as donations for her foundation.

Q: When did you marry?

A: I have been with Tungwa from 1990 to the day she wrote a letter that she had divorced me. This was in September or October 2001 when I had a case in the High Court.

Q: Where did you meet?

A: I met Tungwa in Lusaka but she used to go to school in the United Kingdom. That's how we met and we decided to start living together or to get married.

Q: Did you marry Tungwa in court or under some customary law or it was under the Act or she just moved in?

A: No, we were just married. Just leave it there. I have said one thing from the beginning that Tungwa is the mother of my children.

Q: How many children do you have?

A: I have two children with Tungwa. I have a first daughter who I had when I was a bit young, about 19 or 20 years, her name is Mercy, she is studying law in Canada. She is 20 now. I have a son with Tungwa - Martin, and a daughter called Natali or rather called Vera. There are five other children, Archie jnr. Monalisa and Gina. The other two - Connie and Kelvin are in London.

'I have forgiven Chiluba, I hold nothing against him'

Q: Are the children you have with Tungwa with her or with you?

A: They are with her.

Q: And you support them?

A: Yes, I do. Whatever I can afford. I would want to get them in fact. I was not supporting them because I was in prison now that I am out, I will definitely support them.

Q: Are you not living in with someone else?

A: No, no, I am not living with someone at the moment. My pre-occupation at the moment is not marriage, it is to straighten up my business and my medical life. It is not to worry about Tungwa. When time comes for Tungwa for divorces and reconciliation or whatever will come up, it will be time for it but at this moment, I leave it the way it is.

Q: What brought this wonderful marriage to an end?

A: On my side I have not said anything, I have just kept quiet. But on her side, she actually wrote a letter of divorce. I have not answered yet. I have just kept quiet.

Q: So what's your position on this matter, or what is your marital status now?

A: My marital status is that I am not living with any woman. I am just free. That's my position and I wouldn't call it divorce, I wouldn't call it anything. If it was in the courts of law or in Parliament, I could have called it a sine die. Since this is marriage or marriage is perceived that people live together and then they are married, if you are not living together then you are not married so on that position I would rather remain mute.

Q: Since you have remained mute, is that an indication that you still insist that Tungwa is your wife still?

A: Not really. I would not insist. All I would say is that Tungwa is the mother of my two children. So to insist that she is my wife, it can't come from me because she has already showed her way.

Q: Now, Tungwa raised some serious allegations which were prominently published in the media about yourself and madam Vera, that you had a love affair which ruined her marriage with you. She even sued the former first lady in the local court saying she had evidence to prove all her claims, what's your comment about these allegations?

A: I mean, an affair of two people, the only evidence which can be held is between the same two people. There is no one who would say I have evidence of two people having an affair because having an affair is actually having intercourse or rather you are sleeping together.

So to sleep together with somebody, the evidence is from somebody who actually eye-witnessed that. You cannot speculate. It is just as good as how we said that...how do I put it?

We suspected or people speculated or people had rumours that Regina and Chiluba were lovers until the day we knew when he said now she is Mrs. Chiluba. Otherwise we wouldn't have known, would we? So for somebody to come up and say this man has an affair with that person I think it's a bit out of malice because it doesn't mean that when you are a man or a boy, you shouldn't discuss or have a word with an opposite sex because when you do then you are having an affair.

Q: But Dr. Chiluba himself believed these rumours and that is why he had to divorce? In fact for Dr. Chiluba, these are not rumours, it's a fact.

A: No, Dr. Chiluba did not divorce Vera or rather his wife for the position of his wife being with me or rather heard that she had an affair with me because there was no proof which was brought before both of us.

And I feel that in the manner that Dr. Chiluba handled the whole position, he over-reacted because I would have appreciated much better for him to have called me and confronted me saying what is this I am hearing? Is it true or false or what is the status quo?

Unlike to leave me and find an excuse or use me to separate with his beloved wife. Because if it was, I mean, from my understanding is that from his reaction, he could have only reacted in that manner if he had caught me red-handed.

And he cannot tell me that for the 33 years he has been with his wife, that the only rumour in those 33 years, is that she was going out with Archie or he suspected that she was going out with Archie. He cannot tell me that he never used to hear anything about her or she never used to speak to any man.

Q: People were saying that you were also accusing Dr. Chiluba of having an affair with Tungwa, what's your comment?

A: I have never accused Dr. Chiluba of having any affair with Tungwa. My misunderstanding or my understanding is that when the whole issue started, why did he want to hear mainly from her? Maybe I will put it that with the utterances that Tungwa was making in the media, they were not going to be in the media with him being the head of state without his approval. At that particular time I could not say anything, I was in prison.

So whatever was happening in the outside world, I was not aware of it so I have never accused him that he has been going out with Tungwa or this was happening. All I have known is that there must have been a mutual understanding or an agreement because for Tungwa who was out and himself to have gone to the extent as head of state where he could go out and approve for the position where these things must be published against his own wife, I think I wouldn't say anything about that.

'I am not an arrogant person, says Archie'

Q: What about car thefts? People and some police officers say Archie is not a businessman, he is just a car thief who hides behind being a businessman. Your comment?

A: I wouldn't talk much about car thefts. The reason is that to steal a car in the first position is that how do I steal a car when actually myself I drive a Mercedes 500, I have got a 500 Mercedes sports, I have got a Rolls Royce, so I cannot see myself stealing a car when I am owning a car which is worth more than the car I am going to steal.

In actual sense to steal a vehicle is that you want to bridge, so why steal a vehicle when you have an expensive vehicle because I am supposed to be stealing maybe a plane because that is what I am envying for. Not a car because a car I have and it is not just a car but one of the best cars.

And you may wish to know that in fact, our company is in the process of acquiring a plane. An eight seater PC12 which should be arriving around June next year. It is a luxury executive jet. It will be stationed in South Africa but I am trying to find ways of registering it in Zambia since I am a Zambian. It is worthy US $4 million and I think we will engage a pilot since it doesn't have a provision for a co-pilot. And this plane is not expensive to maintain, it uses jet fuel worth US $300 for 2,000 kilometres.

Q: But is it true that you knew madam Vera because you just wanted to take advantage of her position in State House so as to enhance your business, and that for this you were prepared to do anything but now that she is no longer in that privileged position you have abandoned her?

A: No, that's not true. We have been all weather friends. Even now I still speak with Vera. From the time I have known her and if I wanted to take advantage of the situation, I think I could have been one of the most wealthiest persons by now.

Q: But what's the truth about this rumour or allegation that there is an affair between you and madam Vera, mind you there is no smoke without fire?

A: There is no affair at all. Vera has just been a person who has been my friend and a person who, ah, ah, how do I put it, as a person who I have respected as a friend. Nothing more to it.

Q: But you know those who know you better say Archie is a conman and a sweetalker?

A: I have never conned anyone, whatever I have done has got history to show for it, even my business transactions are properly backed with documentary evidence. Everyone is free to check that (He later produced several documents for various transactions). I have not conned anyone, I wish somebody could tell me to say you came here and got away with something of mine because you told me this story or that story. Whatever I have has come out of my own hard work.

Q: Where are you in terms of property or business assets?

A: What I have done is that when this problem started most of the money was actually in the Congo and that is where I used to take a lot of goods from South Africa like maize and fertiliser. And most of my funds are actually out of the country in South Africa.

Q: When did you last see or talk to Dr. Chiluba?

A: The last time I saw him was at Nandos early this year. The last time we greeted each other was in 1999 at State House where he found me seated in the office with the secretary to the first lady and the first lady. I think that was the time he was coming from the Cathedral Church meeting.

Q: About two years ago you were arrested for aggravated robbery and later on you were acquitted. Do you think this was indeed an aggravated robbery or it was more than that?

A: In actual sense, there was no aggravated robbery. In the first place, with aggravated robbery you cannot rob on your own. There must be a weapon. So there was no such a thing as aggravated robbery because such a thing was never there. You know aggravated robbery is not a bailable case and that's why I was charged with aggravated robbery. And that law which was amended to make theft of motor vehicles unbailable was targeted at me just to ensure that I was forever in prison.

That is injustice because that law was made for one person though it has affected a lot of people today and I welcome the new deal's intentions to repeal that law because it is a bad law. I can't wish it on anyone else. Even the case I was just acquitted on recently, that's how it started. They said first it was receiving a motor vehicle believed to have been stolen from outside Zambia. Then it changed to theft of motor vehicle.

When I applied for bail I was not granted bail because they said if we left a culprit like this he was going to steal another vehicle. I applied for bail at the High Court and I was granted bail for K7 million. When I was granted this bail and before I could walk out of the prison's gates, I was picked up and the story changed now to say actually you actually robbed the truck in Pretoria. So I was charged now for aggravated robbery.

And I kept going to court and they said they would bring in nine witnesses from South Africa as state witness to testify how I robbed the truck. From there, there was a nolle entered on the truck. I was charged now before I could even leave the court premises, there was another matter brought in to say oh, there was an aggravated robbery in Congo, I had taken a Pajero or Patrol whatever it was.

So I was charged now for aggravated robbery of a Nissan Patrol or whatever it was. And until the law changed to theft of motor vehicle not being bailable. So in short I would say that the aggravated robbery was just a position of being kept away from the outside world.

Q: For what reasons?

A: Maybe for reasons that since there was an allegation that I was having an affair with the first lady and if I was going to be let loose...or maybe it was just a way of punishment.

Q: Do you feel that you were indeed punished?

A: In everything you create a benefit of doubt and once that benefit of doubt was created I stayed in prison for such a time which I felt that even if I offended him by being friendly to his wife or by being closer to his woman, at least it could have come to a position where he could have said this is enough.

But it looked like the vendetta against me by Dr. Chiluba was bigger than actually being friendly to his wife. It was not in a manner where he felt that maybe I disrespected him or maybe I was too friendly with his woman whichever way he could have judged it.

Q: What do you think, were you too friendly for that suspicion to be raised?

A: Maybe because he got to know that I was also friendly with Dr. Kaunda. So the passion with which he hated Kaunda, he began also to throw it to me since as you have already tried to find out about the pictures of me in India together with Kaunda and me being closer to Kaunda, he felt maybe if he never got his joy he might as well get it from me who was closer to Kaunda.

Because I do not see how the position of his status, if it was for the position that he wanted to punish me, okay fine, a child would do something wrong you reach to the extent of saying 'at least he has learnt a lesson' but you cannot have a position of indefinite punishment.

Q: When you look back, what are your feelings?

A: Surprising enough and honestly enough, I am not bitter about any situations because I felt that he did whatever he did which he thought was in his own powers that he could do whatever he wanted. I have forgiven Dr. Chiluba for incarcerating me, I hold nothing against him.

In fact, I would want to meet him over a cup of coffee and talk about the events of the year 2000. I would seriously want to meet him especially now that he is less busy and madam Regina is at home to serve us with some coffee.

I can only wish Dr. Chiluba good luck and I congratulate him for his new marriage. I wish him well with Regina. But for me, I am not bitter because all I need to do is to continue business where I left from, to put my business in the right position as you can see from the time I came out and now, I am looking different from the time you used to come and see me in hospital.

Q: And talking about that, how is your health now since you were diagnosed with a lot of diseases when you were in prison?

A: I am now okay. I have been going up and down from the time I came out, always going for treatment abroad. I have also concentrated on straightening my business.

I have good working relationship with Farmwise Grains of South Africa in the maize business and there is in our possession at this particular time 150,000 metric tonnes of maize and mealie-meal which we have been trying to take to Congo or try and find the people in need of it, we are trying to dispose of it.

Q: How much money or business did you lose when you were in incarceration?

A: Mind you when I was just picked up, I had just finished the contract, I supplied Food Reserve Agency with fertiliser; about 10,000 metric tonnes which was compound D and Urea and Carn which is special ammonium. That time I was paid funds from the Congolese government for fertilisers, that time there was the late Kabila senior as president. From that time I have got a contract with the Congolese government for 27,000 metric tonnes which is worth about K27 billion.

Q: Is that contract still standing because we heard that the Congolese government cancelled it the moment they learnt of your arrest?

A: Yes, it is still standing. It was not terminated because the person who actually drew up the contract was your legal advisor to President Mwanawasa today, Mr. Darlington Mwape and to terminate that contract; that was supposed to be done in the chambers of Geneva or courts of Geneva. How do you terminate a contract without calling both parties to the contract? Up to now we are still supplying in the same contract although there has been a delay for a year or so but my people from South Africa have been actually supplying.

Q: How is your relationship with the current government?

A: The current administration, I think it is okay. The first lady was my lawyer actually. She is the one who was representing me in some of the matters I had with the last administration.

Darlington Mwape was also my lawyer in some other matters and this is the man who is today advising President Mwanawasa on legal matters.

Q: We heard that he abandoned you at some stage, how did that happen?

A: What happened is that it came to his position where he decided to withdraw because that was the time the MMD asked him to start helping them campaigning, I am sure. So he was more busy on his business of campaigning rather than coming to courts and things like that.

Q: Did he explain that position to you or you just saw him disappear?

A: He explained that position to me, even the first lady came to me and explained that. The position was that they never had the time to be in court on particular dates they were supposed to be.

Being in court most of the times, Mr. Mwape thought he could not manage to continue appearing for me. That was the time I got Sakwiba Sikota and Nellie Mutti plus Mumbuna.

Q: I know you may not be the best person to answer this but just how would you describe the character of Archie Duncan Malie?

A: If I had to describe myself, I would describe myself as the most generous person because in whatever I have done, I have tried to uplift my fellow human beings.

I think that is my most weakness that I have because I try and listen more and help more and have nothing in return. I think because of my openness, this is why even this story of me going out with Vera or people suspecting that I go out with Vera is because there was nothing I was hiding because it was an open friendship and everyone knew that I was friendly with her. But people misunderstood that friendship to be more than just friends. And in that manner even if you wanted to see her or if you had an affair with her, where would that be done?

In the first place she is a person who was never alone but because of my openness I felt there was nothing wrong even if Tom, Janet or Dick knew that I was friendly with her, nobody will think about anything else.

Q: Are you now free to visit her in the face of what has been said about the two of you?

A: Yes, I can visit her at any given time. Being over-open, being free is what has caused this problem of people misunderstanding me because if I was a bit closed and self centred nobody was going to know that I am friendly with anyone of authority.

When you are friends with people in authority it's because you are getting something from them or you are doing something with them or they are getting something from you.

Q: So do you think the public has judged you fairly or otherwise on this issue?

A: In every man's deeds, good or bad, every man has his own supporters. Even Hitler he killed six million Jews but at the same time he also had his own supporters who felt that he was doing something good. You never get 100 per cent support from the people.

Some people will have something to say and other people will have some bad things to say, some people will be controversial, some people will say it's a lie, some people will say it's the truth, some people will say we don't know him - everyone will have something to say.

It's a position that people will not judge you 100 per cent that you have been a good man or you have been a bad man; some are for you and some are not for you.

Q: Anything you would want to say?

A: Nothing much. All I would want to say is that most of the people should not pursue somebody or perceive somebody in a position because there is a story behind him and each time they see him they all get jittery.

Q: Are you in other words saying that people are uncomfortable with your presence?

A: I will tell you of an incident which happened last week, or two weeks ago. I wanted to apply for a telephone line for my mum. So we had gone there, Roma Zamtel somewhere there.

And when we reached there some lady there saw the name and said 'is this Archie Vera, no I think, you know I am not supposed to...let me find out whether it is okay for me to go ahead or not'.

So the boss had to clear that name saying those are personal issues why are you getting involved? If he is applying for a phone, let him go ahead and apply. What I am trying to say is that you see, somebody went on and said 'when this guy comes give him...'

But I think each and everyone must be judged according to his deeds and must be judged according to his performance, performance whereby if he has entered into a business transaction; has he performed or not? If he has performed it doesn't matter whether he comes from the opposition, the heaven or from the jungle.

If he has performed, he must be given a chance to perform or he must be given a chance to fail because you can only trust somebody when you can afford to lose. I cannot say I trust you Mr. Malupenga when I have not given you my phone and you have not come back with it.

If I can give you the phone and you came back and say I have used it thank you then I can trust you. If you go with it, I can't trust you. But I can't trust you to say because you are going to phone here in the corner you might just go with it, because it's more likely you can go with it. And because I am in the possession to lose this phone to gain your trust, I will be able to give it to you then I can have a story to tell about you whether you are a trusted person or not a trusted person.

Otherwise, I cannot judge you from nowhere because I have just heard that Mr. Malupenga he does this or he did this, what proof do I have?

Q: But many people insist that Archie is just a conman, he is not a serious person.

A: You know to be judged as a conman is that you must have a record or actually conning somebody because being a conman is a position where you are actually selling something or pretending to have something or you are showing other people that you are what you are because you want to attract them to give you what you don't have.

So I don't see where somebody would stand on the platform and say Archie conned me. Whatever they think about me, how have I managed to have better references with people with influence or rather people with authority? I know on one-to-one basis people like Arafat.

If I have no credibility, how would I associate myself with such people? Arafat is not the only one, through Dr. Kaunda, I know a lot of influential leaders in the world. Because if I was a conman I was supposed to be in Katondo street, that's the famous street where a conman is supposed to be because you are trying to find somebody to con to have something to eat. If I was a conman I wouldn't have survived up to now.

If they say that you are a thief, they should find you stealing or have evidence of that theft. The Bembas say umupupu nipa kuboko. Not just to suspect and say Mr. Malupenga is a thief, no. The most important thing is that we Zambians must be able to support each other, we must be able to be proud of each other with what we are capable of doing. We must be more protective than being rumour mongers or try to look for reasons or ways of how to criticise somebody.

Because in the first place, it didn't have to take Chiluba to find me at State House. The first day that I went to State House he could have had a reference for me. He could have known who this boy is, where does he come from, what's his name? He didn't have to take a position of where plates were found at my house and say then it is true that you are going out with my wife, or however you put it.

Q: Yes, we heard of plates and pictures and video tapes as part of the evidence of your affair with madam Vera.

A: I am not aware of that. I have never seen any plates, I have never seen any video tapes and I have never seen anything.

Q: But was Dr. Chiluba aware that you had been visiting madam Vera at State House?

A: Visiting State House is like you are the master who is in front of this house and you have got your maid or cook or your children who live behind you, they first pass through you isn't it?

So there is nowhere that I could have gone into State House without him knowing that there was such a stranger who had come to see his wife. If I had gone there more frequently, I think it was more important or more cardinal for him to say 'next time he comes here try and call this person who passes through here' to come and see me so that I should find out what he comes here for.

Isn't that correct than just making me pass to and from without even getting concerned whether I am going to the left or right hand side. He ignored that completely, which could not be true because he knew definitely that I was going there. That's why it is called State House, State House is like a prison. You cannot go into a prison to visit a prisoner without the warder knowing that you are inside.

They will know that so and so has come in and so and so has gone out or so and so is still inside, he has not come out.

Q: Or he has spent a night there?

A: Yes, or he has spent the night there. Where is time in and time out? Surprisingly, he tried to play that he had no knowledge of me coming in or maybe she used to make me sneak in or sneak out. I can't understand where that came from.

Q: When you were in hospital whilst in prison, you were guarded 24 hours a day. When you were about to sleep, didn't you have those illusions that maybe something would happen to you?

A: I have never had those funny illusions. I am not scared to go anywhere because of my position that I know deep down my heart that I never wronged anyone.

Even when I used to sleep, I used to sleep peacefully because I was the most guarded prisoner, even more guarded than Xavier Chungu. But I never used to worry that maybe these people will pick me and take me this way or that way to squeeze me because the fact is that I didn't do anything wrong. All I was waiting for was time to come.

But sometimes they used to pick me up, like this time I was picked in the middle of the night and I didn't know where I was being taken. I ended up finding myself in Mukobeko.

I was the only remandee who was taken to Mukobeko for maximum security. Reasons are best known to the person who was behind it.

Q: How were you treated by the inmates in prison?

A: Very well. In the first place I am not an arrogant person, I am a very friendly person, a person you can relate to easily, a person you can get along with easily. I am not pompous, I am not proud, I don't look at myself as the have not or the one who has.

Whatever I would receive or what I have, if there is meat to share I would help. There are a lot of people I helped at the prisons, especially the Prohibited Immigrants. Most of them have now gone back to their countries. I helped a lot of people who never used to receive visitors.

Q: Did the inmates know that you were in prison because you had an affair with madam Vera?

A: No, they knew that I had a misunderstanding with the person who kept me in prison.

Looking at the guards who used to guard me, they knew that it was somebody who was very forceful behind whatever wrongs I did. Although the case record indicated aggravated robbery, the prison was full of aggravated robbers but they were never guarded the way I used to be guarded.

I had the whole crack squad, that's how they called it, the paramilitary crack squad which was looking after me. The A1 team of police looking after one particular person. I had bazookas, you name it - AK47 or whatever apart from armoured cars.

I also had women police who were searching my women visitors because most of my visitors were women. And I was not arrested by anybody junior than a Commissioner, it was from a Commissioner upwards. And reacting to opposition Zambia Republican Party president Ben Mwila's warning that he foresaw the 1986 food riots coming back unless government urgently provided food to the citizens, Archie said the fears were misplaced.

"We do not see any reason as to why people should complain of shortages of food, which is the staple food - maize. We have enough maize to feed the nation for another two years, not two months. So there is no need for people to speculate that there will be a food riot as long as government looks at the right people to deliver what is their requirement."

Q: So where is this maize because people are crying here that there is a shortage of maize?

A: This maize is in South Africa we have 150,000 metric tonnes and we have positions with Farmwise Grains limited worth 1.3 million tonnes. So there is no need that they should say there is going to be food riots.

Q: But why are we not receiving this maize?

A: Why we are not having the maize is very simple.

The people who were awarded contracts, gave government a wrong position that they could be able to supply maize at US $245 or US $255 per metric tonne which is not possible at the moment because of the commodity exchange of South Africa, you have to edge the maize to keep at the price you are going to supply.

If you don't, the position of prices changes according to the bidders and the supply and demand. Today, to land maize here it will cost government US $310 or US $320 per metric tonne up to US $330. Which means already that the price of mealie-meal will be higher. If we are to deliver ourselves we are quoting US $290 because of our positions that we had edged before which is GMO free under Farmwise.

We can also supply maize meal at very reasonable prices.

And the doubting Thomases about our capability to deliver should verify with Chance Kabaghe who was the chief executive officer of Food Reserve Agency.

He knows whether we are performers or not. That's why when trouble started, Chance Kabaghe was called to State House to explain if we performed in the tender which was awarded to us and he confirmed that performance was done. People like Sasol are aware that we perform. That's why it is surprising for people to come up with allegations that Archie is a con because if I was a conman, Sasol or FRA were big companies to conman. The FRA tender was worth more than US $5million.